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Post by Erniewan on Mar 14, 2012 22:58:27 GMT -6
Here it is, guys, the final poll! Feel free to argue, support, whatever! (Only rule now is that they must have voted before) Abraham LincolnShrek
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Post by Erniewan on Mar 15, 2012 7:01:43 GMT -6
But seriously, a father of our country who legitimately freed millions of people and died as a result of it, or a cartoon ogre from a children's movie that doesn't even so much as slay a dragon?
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shrek32
White Belt
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Post by shrek32 on Mar 15, 2012 10:39:06 GMT -6
somebody once told me the world was gonna roll me (abe lincoln on shrek winning dis vote)
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Post by mogwaipeacesoldier on Mar 15, 2012 10:40:44 GMT -6
But seriously, a father of our country who legitimately freed millions of people and died as a result of it, or a cartoon ogre from a children's movie that doesn't even so much as slay a dragon? Well Erniewan, when good battles evil, which side do you believe wins? It is for this reason alone that I'm sure Shrek will pull through. (long live the shrekfederacy!)
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Post by billtheprotector on Mar 15, 2012 11:16:30 GMT -6
Evil Abe Lincoln be gone!
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Captain Planet
Shodan {1st degree}
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He's a hero![ss:District Court No. 76]
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Post by Captain Planet on Mar 15, 2012 11:28:17 GMT -6
I believe Abe's time is.... ogre.
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Squeege
Green Belt
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Post by Squeege on Mar 15, 2012 11:51:36 GMT -6
This competition stopped making sense once Westley was voted off, but... But seriously, a father of our country who legitimately freed millions of people and died as a result of it, or a cartoon ogre from a children's movie that doesn't even so much as slay a dragon? Shrek is a good hero because of his character development; The first movie is a very good example of the "Hero's Journey". He starts out as a despicable Ogre that no one likes, and he doesn't care, nor does he care about the fate of anyone other than himself. Even though he originally sets out just to save his swamp, he grows to care about others, and starts to become likeable, in sort of a blunt/honest sort of way. He then saves the creatures from Farquad (or whatever his name is), becoming a sort of underdog hero. That said, I voted for Abe. Which is odd, cause I'm not even really sure why.
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Post by Erniewan on Mar 15, 2012 12:01:43 GMT -6
If we're looking for honesty here, I think Honest Abe gots him beat there.
And I'm sure Abraham Lincoln started off unliked, at least so much to half the country that they seceded (and later assassinated him), but after many years, I'm sure even the South highly holds Lincoln in high regard as the greatest President.
These people that are voting for Shrek don't even have good reasons, they just have no sense of what a true hero is. Really, Mogwai, making reference to my signature without even explaining how that relates to your argument? And calling Abe "evil", that's just childish or trollish when you know full well that he isn't.
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Post by softguitar on Mar 15, 2012 12:44:05 GMT -6
I agree with Squeege about Shrek still being a hero and Ernie about people not having good arguments why they voted for someone, in this case Shrek.
The third and fourth movie weren't that great anyway. Why does Dreamworks not know when to stop and keep making prequels, sequels and specials...
I think people who voted for Shrek can relate to him and tend to not vote for someone who: A. lived in the past, B. they can't relate to and have no idea who he is, C. is a non-fictional character. D. PEOPLE ARE OGRES! E. I don't have a clue, so please explain why.
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Captain Planet
Shodan {1st degree}
[M:10200]
He's a hero![ss:District Court No. 76]
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Post by Captain Planet on Mar 15, 2012 12:53:20 GMT -6
Since when does somebody need a good reason to vote for a character... I like Shrek. End of story!
Though I do feel like Abe doesn't quite fit this category. When I think of Hero Character Battle I think of a fictional character. I think Abe may be the only actual person in this poll. I think? If not he's definitely one of the few. It just doesn't feel right to me. But hey! Who cares! It will all be ogre soon anyways.
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Post by billtheprotector on Mar 15, 2012 13:05:43 GMT -6
Abe is dreck man, don't you get it?
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Post by mogwaipeacesoldier on Mar 15, 2012 13:26:09 GMT -6
Wow you guys, this is basically coming down to, "Waaaaah, I don't like Shrek you don't even have a good reason for voting for him!"
Shrek is a very enjoyable movie, with likable characters. I'm sorry you project all your negative traits onto Shrek, but that really isn't my problem. I like him... so I'm gonna vote for him! (Also Abe is arguably evil; he let Sherman pillage and destroy Georgia)
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Post by softguitar on Mar 15, 2012 14:16:43 GMT -6
You can vote for anyone you like. You guys just gave reasons and arguments why you voted for someone you like just now. It's just nice to read that instead of everyone going "ABE IS AWESOME" or "SHREK IS DA MAN".
Mogwai, I was talking about you. You quoting Ernie's sig was kind of confusing to me and I had no idea what you were saying about good and evil. LOL
= not American; and can't read everything well enough.
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Post by NPR on Mar 15, 2012 15:19:52 GMT -6
Seriously though dude, quit whining. This is a popularity contest. If a lot of people like Shrek, then sure, shrek's gonna win. Don't make a federal case out of it. <Voted for Abe simply because slaves included africans and mexicans. Without him, we wouldn't have Fobby, Kat, and whoever else is of those 2 nationalities.
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Post by Nyan Kat on Mar 15, 2012 15:21:48 GMT -6
except I think my ancestors might have come to the U.S. independently of that but idk
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Post by mogwaipeacesoldier on Mar 15, 2012 15:39:36 GMT -6
Mexicans weren't used as slaves NPR. Native Americans were by the Spanish, but Mexicans were just highly discriminated against.
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Post by Darthpokey on Mar 15, 2012 16:17:02 GMT -6
Shrek would have been a better president....................
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Post by NPR on Mar 15, 2012 16:35:44 GMT -6
Mexicans weren't used as slaves NPR. Native Americans were by the Spanish, but Mexicans were just highly discriminated against. Which is why I'm not a history major
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waehofen
Green Belt
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Post by waehofen on Mar 15, 2012 16:48:37 GMT -6
The third and fourth movie weren't that great anyway. Why does Dreamworks not know when to stop and keep making prequels, sequels and specials... I lol'd at "third and fourth" it's a dreamworks movie, please e: I've watched this movie several times in several languages, and didn't enjoy any of them very much. does linking to this make me a bad personI'm just saying
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Post by Darthpokey on Mar 15, 2012 17:01:28 GMT -6
:J
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Post by Erniewan on Mar 15, 2012 17:12:43 GMT -6
Making arguments is whining now? I guess that means Mafia is all about that! Unless you're not referencing me, which is probably the case... it's just that people who can't support their reasoning owe it to themselves to at least reconsider. Blindly supporting something gets us nowhere.
But waehofen is right. Dreamworks tends to make cookie cutter movies full of cheesy jokes and pop references that just has no depth behind it. Now Pixar, I wouldn't mind so much, because those movies are better developed.
As for Abraham Lincoln, if you are seriously arguing against him by saying he was evil, you've got problems rationalizing. His actions freed the slaves and kept the nation unified, even if he had to lead the country in one of the bloodiest wars to do so. He was hardly a saint, but he was definitely a heroic leader. And real people can't be heroes? Just because fairy tales tend to make things more black and white doesn't make them any more relevant.
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Captain Planet
Shodan {1st degree}
[M:10200]
He's a hero![ss:District Court No. 76]
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Post by Captain Planet on Mar 15, 2012 18:20:24 GMT -6
Nobody said real people couldn't be heroes. But it's Heroes Character Battle. Not just Heroes Battle. I think everybody just thought the character part was of a fictional aspect.
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Post by Erniewan on Mar 15, 2012 18:30:03 GMT -6
Good point, but the "Character Battle" part is just the name of the game. In fact, see the name of the board, "Character Battle". Besides, real people can be characters too, like "he's quite the character". And in the opening post, I specifically stated that real people were allowed. Alright, let's do this! I'm making it an annual event, every January. I think the first Character Battle will be... Heroes! Everyone PM me a list of your Top 5 favorite Heroes (video game heroes, superheroes, action heroes, even historical heroes) and Top 5 honorable mention Heroes.
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Captain Planet
Shodan {1st degree}
[M:10200]
He's a hero![ss:District Court No. 76]
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Post by Captain Planet on Mar 15, 2012 19:34:25 GMT -6
okay ernie... calm down there!
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Post by Erniewan on Mar 15, 2012 20:26:51 GMT -6
> Lose argument > OMG calm down!
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Captain Planet
Shodan {1st degree}
[M:10200]
He's a hero![ss:District Court No. 76]
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Post by Captain Planet on Mar 15, 2012 20:31:16 GMT -6
Whoa there, it wasn't even an argument! It was just me stating my opinion on character battle! You're taking this game pretty seriously mate!
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Post by mogwaipeacesoldier on Mar 15, 2012 20:33:48 GMT -6
As for Abraham Lincoln, if you are seriously arguing against him by saying he was evil, you've got problems rationalizing. Here come the ad hominems... Seriously though, Shrek is way more deserving, I'm glad he's winning. We know very little about Abe's early life, and with Shrek we get the full story of the reluctant hero.
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Post by richardhandler on Mar 15, 2012 20:41:49 GMT -6
Clearly you guys missed the entire point of Shrek. The idea of the Adventurer is a slightly silly one. That's not necessarily a bad thing - silly can be a lot of fun - but the idea of a bunch of heavily armed ass-kickers wandering around and leaping into life-threatening situations for fun is a bit odd. It's hard to fit that in the context of any kind of logical world. Most justifications (such as the idle rich, one of the few careers that lets you run around swinging a sword like a fool) end up flying in the face of other adventuring traditions (the idle rich don't need much loot, after all). Because of this, most movies (like most fiction) has at least some motive that necessitates the heroes take action. This is most often in the form of a threat which the heroes must face, but it can take other forms, like a quest. Curiously, the thinner the character is (say, an orphaned loner), the less work needs to go into this motive, because in a vacuum, all you need is a small push. Viewers usually recognize the necessity of this motivation, and are often willing to put a little work at the outset establishing a pretense, and then just rolling with it from then on. The priority, after all, is to get onto the adventuring, and a thin veneer of justification is enough to speed that process. Now, here's where you hit something that interests me. Most such heroes are reactive (or if they're proactive, it's in a very straight line). The threat rises, and they face it. If there's no threat, there's not a lot for them to do. Now, villains are proactive, and that's a good reason to play not-quite-heroes, but that solution doesn't always work. So I end up looking for another alternative for an easy way to construct a proactive hero. Paradoxically, one of the best solutions I've thought of is the reluctant hero, a staple of fiction. This is the guy who, if he had a choice in the matter, wouldn't be adventuring, he'd be off doing something else; probably something normal. Traditionally, this guy is a pain in the ass. A Donkey sees this swamp house or hears this ogre talking, and red flags go up. If the character doesn't have a good reason to adventure, then odds are good that the plot will be unsatisfactory for everyone. If you have to spend your time fighting the hero in order to get him to quest, then something is deeply wrong. This is one of the clearest possible examples of why the relationship between the sidekick and protagonist is not truly an adversarial one. The sidekick is responsible for providing opposition, yes, but he does this as a partner to the protagonist, not an enemy. If it were a truly adversarial relationship, it would end in mutually assured destruction as the sidekick drops infinite jokes on the character's appearance and the protagonist decides he'd rather be doing something else. But once the protagonist realizes that this only works when he *wants* the sidekick to throw hard things at him, the dynamic shifts drastically, and a lot of things that had been roadblocks can make the game better. Taking the specific example of reluctance - from a player who understands that what he really wants to do is play, not find excuses not to play, reluctance is an invitation. It says to the protagonist "Let's make sure my reasons to engage have some teeth. I'm not looking for an excuse to adventure, I'm looking for a reason". Now, this is absolutely a challenge, demanding that the sidekick step up as well, but sidekicks need that to keep themselves from getting flabby. So if you can end up with a character like this, consider what you now have: a strongly motivated, well fleshed out character with reason's to act beyond the immediate plot. Whatever is motivating the character to act is an obvious character hook for other events and conflicts. You have a character who has an understanding of what he wants, understands why he's doing what he's doing, and who will - if left alone - step up and start getting proactive in pursuit of his larger goal. All without needing to be a lovable rogue or dashing scoundrel. tl;dr Abe Lincoln sucks.
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Doc
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Post by Doc on Mar 15, 2012 20:44:31 GMT -6
Abraham Lincoln sucks? Coulda fooled me.
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Post by mogwaipeacesoldier on Mar 15, 2012 20:46:38 GMT -6
Well, I wouldn't expect a Northerner to really understand.
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